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Wednesday,Jul 29 2009, 12:54:35 PMDilemma
I am in a bit of confusion and dilemma in here. I have seen two Asian boys closely. Lets call them A and B. Lets say, they are cousins and was born in the same year. They left school together. After that A went for Uni, B went for job. A lives away from home, 
manages himself with maintenance loan and part-time job. He has to pay for his accommodation, food, books and other education accessories. He seems always broke. He also has to take student loan for his tuition fees. On the other hand, B works full time, earns £1,200 per month. Since he still lives with his parents, he doesn’t have to pay for food or accommodation. He lives a lavish life. Buys new gadgets, expensive cloths, perfumes, spends money on girls, clubbing. He is enjoying his youth in full.
After 4 years, A comes out of Uni with £30,000 debt and unemployed. He does not have money to support himself, so he lives with his parents now. B on the other hand, have a savings of £30,000, planning to move out from home and start his own life separately and start a business with the savings he has along with some small business loan.
Now…does it not seem B is in a better situation than A? I don’t understand, why would anyone want to go for higher education?
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8/3/2009 1:05 PMRe: ....
But....I guess there is one thing for you.. You going to go up the ladder very fast while she might never going as far as you would?
In UK, it has been a big issues last few weeks. Tories are asking government to publish information about the whereabouts of the graduate to show what graduates are doing and earning now. I read it in news yesterday/
In UK, it has been a big issues last few weeks. Tories are asking government to publish information about the whereabouts of the graduate to show what graduates are doing and earning now. I read it in news yesterday/
7/30/2009 8:18 PMMoral of the story
Josh
50, California, United States
Four years out, Student B is definitely ahead. Yet if Student A knows her multiplication tables, he is should be able to see a huge benefit from his studies in the long term, despite his temporary setback. Having said that, careers in the trades DO pay well, and can't be outsourced.
You have chosen maturely (as befits your years) to live with your mom while you study. It's a huge savings, although can be lonely, as in one's hundreds one wishes to spend a lot of time with age-peers. One seldom runs into other centenarians at home, and the university is not the easiest place to make friends.
You have chosen maturely (as befits your years) to live with your mom while you study. It's a huge savings, although can be lonely, as in one's hundreds one wishes to spend a lot of time with age-peers. One seldom runs into other centenarians at home, and the university is not the easiest place to make friends.
7/31/2009 5:04 PMRe: Moral of the story
Lets see what long terms bring fro Student A :)
I got to...no other option really. My age peers....lol...they all should be dead by now!! :P Its nice to stay at home though, savings is a good point but you get to eat home made food as well...lol..
I got to...no other option really. My age peers....lol...they all should be dead by now!! :P Its nice to stay at home though, savings is a good point but you get to eat home made food as well...lol..
8/3/2009 3:09 AMRe: Re: Re: Re: Moral of the story
Josh
50, California, United States
Keep laughing at me, you superannuated furriner! For some reason we didn't get a lot of Indian food in my boyhood home. There, was, however, a little jar of curry powder on the spice rack in the kitchen. I can't remember anyone but myself using it, and that was more of an experiment.
Recently I got out my Mexican mortar and pestle (molcajete y mano) to grind up a bunch of spices like coriander seed, ginger root, and black peppercorns for a recipe from a cookbook. Son of a gun! When I was done I had curry powder. So much for my theory that curry powder came from ground "curry-seeds." : )
Recently I got out my Mexican mortar and pestle (molcajete y mano) to grind up a bunch of spices like coriander seed, ginger root, and black peppercorns for a recipe from a cookbook. Son of a gun! When I was done I had curry powder. So much for my theory that curry powder came from ground "curry-seeds." : )
7/30/2009 1:24 AMI can relate to this...
Due to various life circumstances I was never able to finish college and now owe my government around $80,000. It wasn't originally that amout, maybe only half or slightly more. I've been lucky to have the payments defered for years but now that my life has settled down, I no longer qualify for any funding to finish my education. I'll never qualify for a job with a salary that will allow me to support my family and repay this debt, my only hope is a successful small business, the lottery (LOL!), or being able to qualify for some eradication of the debt by some little known legal loophole. Only in the past couple years has this looming debt begun to affect me credit-wise. I don't suggest anyone to begin college straight from high school unless they are financially prepared with some kind of trust and have great certainty of their future goals. Those are formidable years and bad decisions and unfortunate events can, at times, take half a lifetime to repair or vanish. I think a majority of young teenagers are not being focused on planning their futures as much as they are being bombarded with commercialism of fantasy life-styles. The lack of preperation will continue to show it's effects throughout the world economy.
7/30/2009 1:42 AMRe: I can relate to this...
Thanks a lot for your insight and experience in this Vintage. I have finished filling in my loan application form a few minutes ago. So this has been biting me hard today.
I donno, how long its going to take me to repay this money when it is inscreasing everyday because of adding of the interest with the actual loan amount. On the otherhand, they are going to deduct the money directly from my salary when I start a job. That is in the contract. Point is, after all those deduction, tax, and other stuff, am I going to have enough to support my family. I am worried about this.
I donno, how long its going to take me to repay this money when it is inscreasing everyday because of adding of the interest with the actual loan amount. On the otherhand, they are going to deduct the money directly from my salary when I start a job. That is in the contract. Point is, after all those deduction, tax, and other stuff, am I going to have enough to support my family. I am worried about this.
7/30/2009 2:08 AMRe: Re: I can relate to this...
That is exactly why I have remained eligible for deferment for all these years. I've never been able to earn enough to afford the payment. I could go on and on about the "hows" and "whys", but ultimately, we're all just human and there is no perfect system. I won't push my children to hurry into college right away. Instead I try to expose them to their personal interests while they're small and teach them life is not the Disney channel. Hopefully, when they're eligible to persue higher education, their goals will be clear to them and they'll have some realistic ideas about finance.
7/29/2009 5:03 PMSame pattern in the US
We have had the same pattern in the US. I went through undergraduate on a California State Scholarship which would have paid my full tuition at a pricey private university (but it was cut and we had to pay a small amount and room and board). Not today!
Loan based financial aid really consists of an interest subsidy and allowing a student to qualify when they would otherwise not be credit worthy. So a financial aid package with a $10,000 loan is REALLY worth maybe $2,000. In addition stripping bankruptcy protection from student loans is, IMHO, criminal.
What the payoff for A and B will be depends on circumstances. Our best students in CS were walking out the door to starting salaries of over $50,000 (about 36,000 Euros). Humanites, Education, Social Sciences, and weak CS students are considerably different.
In today's economy it is quite possible that both A and B will be unemployed. If B is living lavishly on the kind of job one gets with only a HS diploma he probably will not have much in the way of savings to start a small business.
Having your own business can make you rich. But it is a chancy thing. For every Bill Gates there's a Tom Gates (never heard of Tom Gates? His business failed and he's living with his mom at age 50).
Loan based financial aid really consists of an interest subsidy and allowing a student to qualify when they would otherwise not be credit worthy. So a financial aid package with a $10,000 loan is REALLY worth maybe $2,000. In addition stripping bankruptcy protection from student loans is, IMHO, criminal.
What the payoff for A and B will be depends on circumstances. Our best students in CS were walking out the door to starting salaries of over $50,000 (about 36,000 Euros). Humanites, Education, Social Sciences, and weak CS students are considerably different.
In today's economy it is quite possible that both A and B will be unemployed. If B is living lavishly on the kind of job one gets with only a HS diploma he probably will not have much in the way of savings to start a small business.
Having your own business can make you rich. But it is a chancy thing. For every Bill Gates there's a Tom Gates (never heard of Tom Gates? His business failed and he's living with his mom at age 50).
7/29/2009 8:07 PMRe: Same pattern in the US
So it seems, unless you qualify to be one of the best CS students, you should not go for higher education!! In my part time work, there are a few pople who graduated last year in Media, business, sociology etc. None of them got a job yet. They only made their part time shelving job fulltime. IOne of my friend completed her BVC and a barister now. She couldn;t manage a puppilage and nowB an umemployed barrister.
Nah...B really saved £30,000...lolz. When you don't have to pay for food, accomodation and laundray you can save a lot really.
I loved the metaphor of Tom Gates...lolzzz.
Thanks a lot for the insight, Robert.
Nah...B really saved £30,000...lolz. When you don't have to pay for food, accomodation and laundray you can save a lot really.
I loved the metaphor of Tom Gates...lolzzz.
Thanks a lot for the insight, Robert.
7/30/2009 1:24 AMRe: Re: Same pattern in the US
B really only saves £30,000 if his work experience v.s. A's degree pays off. Depending on A's degree this may or may not be true. It's worth noting that B is ahead by the £30,000 that A owes plus B's earnings over 4 years. You also make the assumption that B is employed and A cannot find a job which I don't find reasonable.
As an economic proposition a college degree only pays off if you can find a job that will make the expense worthwhile. Actually our average CS graduate can generally find work that pays enough to make it worth doing. The weakest students are the losers. Those that push college degrees by citing figures that show college grads earn so much more than high school grads so majoring in Humanities pays off are, frankly, scamming people (this is not to say that one shouldn't major in the Humanities -- just that it's not profitable).
I can tell you that investing in a CS Ph.D. is also not profitable :)
As far as the shifting of funding from grants and scholarships to loans -- if I were to put my Marxist hat on I might argue that a high quality education is increasingly reserved only for the elite classes and that there are powerful forces that do not want young people well educated (sheep aren't smart).
As an economic proposition a college degree only pays off if you can find a job that will make the expense worthwhile. Actually our average CS graduate can generally find work that pays enough to make it worth doing. The weakest students are the losers. Those that push college degrees by citing figures that show college grads earn so much more than high school grads so majoring in Humanities pays off are, frankly, scamming people (this is not to say that one shouldn't major in the Humanities -- just that it's not profitable).
I can tell you that investing in a CS Ph.D. is also not profitable :)
As far as the shifting of funding from grants and scholarships to loans -- if I were to put my Marxist hat on I might argue that a high quality education is increasingly reserved only for the elite classes and that there are powerful forces that do not want young people well educated (sheep aren't smart).
7/30/2009 1:34 AMRe: Re: Re: Same pattern in the US
I will tell you an incedent happened in UK a couples of years ago. A molicular scientist ( if I can remember properly, he had a P hD that I am sure about) resigned from his job and took a short course on Plumbing and started a new carrer as a plumber. He said, that was way more profiatble than whatever it was he was doing. A plumber earns £120.00 per hour, and a new barrister earn £125.00 per hour. A plumbing course is free, and last six months. To be a barister you need to invest at least 4 years, and spend almost £40,000.
But you are right in one point. If you can get a Good degree, in a subject that has market demand, in the long run you might be a rich person. Than again, it was much more like the same with Tom Gate. You hardly know where you are going to end up.
I totally agree with you on this. Its not being marxist, its fact. Higher education is not for common people.
But you are right in one point. If you can get a Good degree, in a subject that has market demand, in the long run you might be a rich person. Than again, it was much more like the same with Tom Gate. You hardly know where you are going to end up.
I totally agree with you on this. Its not being marxist, its fact. Higher education is not for common people.
7/29/2009 1:20 PMSeems highly unfair etc!
But that is the way things are going these days.
It is of course expected that the university man will eventually get a HIGH PAID job, and be able to pay off that loan, and be richer later!
When I was of that age we got given grants to be students, and with suplements from parents and holiday jobs most students COULD AFFORD to be fairly comfortable, get their degrees and earn more. The taxes from those earnings of course paid the grants!
BUT in the 1980's ?1990's Thatcher's government stopped grants and introduced loans..................
*SMILES*
It is of course expected that the university man will eventually get a HIGH PAID job, and be able to pay off that loan, and be richer later!
When I was of that age we got given grants to be students, and with suplements from parents and holiday jobs most students COULD AFFORD to be fairly comfortable, get their degrees and earn more. The taxes from those earnings of course paid the grants!
BUT in the 1980's ?1990's Thatcher's government stopped grants and introduced loans..................
*SMILES*
7/29/2009 1:38 PMRe: Seems highly unfair etc!
I am scared of the debt I am going to end up with, Chris. Every month they are adding £40 interest to my student loans. It is hard for the students now a days to come out of uni with out around £40,000 loan. And I know a lot of students who have graduated this year is not getting jobs.
The law graduates, who got training contracts with Law firms, now offered from £2,000 to £12,000 to the trainee's to defer their training for a year.
But to answer your question, lets take it hypotheatically, B started the business with his savings and a small loan, since A was unemployed he offered A a job. So now, A is using his skills and knowledge to make B rich and even may be famous!!
The law graduates, who got training contracts with Law firms, now offered from £2,000 to £12,000 to the trainee's to defer their training for a year.
But to answer your question, lets take it hypotheatically, B started the business with his savings and a small loan, since A was unemployed he offered A a job. So now, A is using his skills and knowledge to make B rich and even may be famous!!
7/29/2009 1:51 PMRe: Re: Seems highly unfair etc!
OH! I had not realised you had such a loan, and that interest was being added! I thought they were interest free loans till you started work, and that you didn't have to pay them off till you were earning enough!
I think this system is wrong! The world seems to LIVE on DEBT! Thank goodness I was lucky not have to do that. The only loan I took out was to buy a house. Luckily that was all paid off by the time I retired, partly due to money left me when my parents died. I think they should put back up income taxes to pay for education, as they use to do. thids whole concept of living on debt is dangerous! AND one reason why the world had the recent credit cruncj!
*SMILES* to you though. Wish I could help. Do your family help you at all?
I think this system is wrong! The world seems to LIVE on DEBT! Thank goodness I was lucky not have to do that. The only loan I took out was to buy a house. Luckily that was all paid off by the time I retired, partly due to money left me when my parents died. I think they should put back up income taxes to pay for education, as they use to do. thids whole concept of living on debt is dangerous! AND one reason why the world had the recent credit cruncj!
*SMILES* to you though. Wish I could help. Do your family help you at all?
7/29/2009 3:25 PMRe: Re: Re: Seems highly unfair etc!
Yes, it is not very nice. Paying over £3,000 each study year is a very difficult thing for anyone who is not from a rich family. The whole system is developed in a way that students have to take the loan.
Yes, we have to pay it back when we start working, a percentage of our pay will be cut off automatically. But the point is, it is still a loan. The funny thing is, even if you go Bankcrupt, the student loan will not be write off. This is like a trap, Chris. You drown yoruself in debt even before you started your life.
Thanks a lot Chris. Its the thought that counts, I am touched by your kindness. But its ok at this point since I am still getting Student loan. I am a bit worried about My BVC course though. That would cost me £14,000 for a year. I am trying to save some money from my student loan, and would also try to get some scolarship and grants, if possible. My mum promised to sell her Jewllary and support me too. But I am not very keen on that Idea. You know how Asian women value their jewllery. They have so much emotional value.
I live with my family, this is helpful. At least I do not spend all my money like A. in this scenario..:)
Yes, we have to pay it back when we start working, a percentage of our pay will be cut off automatically. But the point is, it is still a loan. The funny thing is, even if you go Bankcrupt, the student loan will not be write off. This is like a trap, Chris. You drown yoruself in debt even before you started your life.
Thanks a lot Chris. Its the thought that counts, I am touched by your kindness. But its ok at this point since I am still getting Student loan. I am a bit worried about My BVC course though. That would cost me £14,000 for a year. I am trying to save some money from my student loan, and would also try to get some scolarship and grants, if possible. My mum promised to sell her Jewllary and support me too. But I am not very keen on that Idea. You know how Asian women value their jewllery. They have so much emotional value.
I live with my family, this is helpful. At least I do not spend all my money like A. in this scenario..:)
8/3/2009 7:27 AM....
now i m just thinking what did i do in de past four years?ma uni diploma is for what?....mmmmm....thinking...